From the outset i must state that i am unconvinced of the Holy Trinity.
I dont declare that it is definately just a creation by constantine but I doubt it to be correct and doubt it can be backed up by scripture.

Today i was told by 2 people that John 1.1 proves it because the WORD is Jesus.
The problem with that is that a translation gives 2 possibilities that would fit.

One is that "word" means "matter" or "commandment" or "speech" and the other "father"
So if the original Hebrew was 'ab awb meaning "father" then the whole thing changes and the assumption that the "word" is Jesus is without substance.

It was never important to me because I believed that God will not mark us down in points for getting little things wrong providing we understand and behave in accordance with His plan and commands.
However I was told unless I believe in the Trinity I cannot be a Christian.
I cannot believe in false doctrine just to be a conformist and I cannot claim not to be a Christian because someone who believes in false doctrine also claims anyone who fails to follow the false doctrine is an outcast.therefore it is an important issue where otherwise it would not be.

The trinity is perfectly described in the bible. There is no doubt about it with out doing mental gymnastics to deny what is said.

[07:23:55 AM 2/05/10] -ChatBot:#CreationScience-Edu- JOHN 1:1 Inthe beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[07:23:55 AM 2/05/10] -ChatBot:#CreationScience-Edu- JOHN 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
[07:23:55 AM 2/05/10] -ChatBot:#CreationScience-Edu- JOHN 1:3 Allthings were made by him; and without him was not any thing madethat was made.
[07:23:55 AM 2/05/10] -ChatBot:#CreationScience-Edu- JOHN 1:14 Andthe Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld hisglory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[07:23:55 AM 2/05/10] -ChatBot:#CreationScience-Edu- ACTS 5:3 ButPeter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the HolyGhost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[07:23:55 AM 2/05/10] -ChatBot:#CreationScience-Edu- ACTS 5:4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was itnot in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thineheart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

As you can see from above those verses describe the trinity quite well on their own but there are over 300 more that reenforce the doctrine of the trinity

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Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
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"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone

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It doesnt actually prove it because you are using the word "WORD" as meaning "word" when the original word translated very probably to "father'.If that is the case then the whole meaning changes and the "father" being among us as His son may simply mean that He was IN the son.
there are many many more passages where Jesus claims not to be the father as He is speaking of or to the father.

Um hebrew (biblical hebrew) has never been a dead language or one where mistranslations can really happen. It has never not been in use it is still in use today.

Of course the jws would say its not translated properly and add the a before the lowercase god in their blasphemous false translation of the bible to make christ a demi god a false god.
So with out twisting scripture the bible makes it very clear about the trinity. To the point where there can be no doubt.

__________________
http://www.icr.org/article/4352/
Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
nova on #topix
the only thing darwinism lacks as a religion is prayer to a god!


"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone

Does not the beginning of the bible talk about "let us make man" maybe thats a hint I dont know it is plural
blessings

It states "let us make man" and may be talking about God and the angels who knows?
Jesus says ,"before Abraham was, I am" or "before Abraham ,was I Am" it deprnds on where you put the comma.In one He says He was there and created before Abraham,in the other He says "I Am" stood before Abraham.

the translation of the bible has a lot to do with it also.the word"word" may have been mistranslated and in many places appears to have been such as "hell" which was actually used in different places by different names such as gehenna sheol and hades.It means different things.

However in this instance word in Hebrew can also mean "father' if that is the way it was used then it all changes.

I believe Jesus was of God and I believe the Holy Spirit is of God but Jesus Himself says "Father why have you forsaken me?"
"Father please move the cup from my hands' many places where Jesus directly points to the fact He is speaking to His father.Was he talking to Himself?

In my view it is not an issue.
But people make it an issue by telling me I am not a Christian because of it.
Jesus also says that God is in all of us.Does that make me God or you God?
Others say I should just have faith.I have faith that God has a plan and I have faith that He will do what He needs to do but I have knowledge of God because I have seen Him and knowledge of God because I have spoken with Him but i want to also have knowledge of the bible so that I know exactly what it says.

In time He will tell me but for now He has shown me passages and i am searching for the truth to satisfy those who claim I am not a Christian that in fact they are correct or wrong because it is they who made the claim.

Christ says in many places that He is Gods son.So should we not believe Him?

What about the Ark of the Covenant?
maybe we should have the Holy Quadruple?
The Ark of The Covenant was the place of God on earth.
Or doesnt He count at that time?

Graemebell,

What you have written isn't just seen by other people. It is seen by God. You may think that just because you personally are unconvinced of the Trinty---that having a cavalier attitude toward things biblical is not offensive. I assure you that it is. I certainly believe that God takes you seriously.

From your first foray onto these forums until this most recent, you have endeavored to indicate that everyone from the early church fathers to most of us here have been spoon-fed a non-biblical bill of goods by people of egregious character and bad judgment.

I don't know who is influencing you presently, or has influenced you in the past, but from what you write it sounds for all the world as though you have cut yourself off from any reasonable pastoral guidance or study hermeneutic.

The principle Scripture which you have brought into question is from a foundational passage about the Godhead. The New Testament was written largely in a language that pervaded a region where many languages abounded. One leftover influence of the Alexandrian conquerors of Judea was their language. Alexandrian/Hellenistic or "Koine" Greek was the trade language of the day. Many spoke it to bridge the gap between Latin, Hebrew and other languages then present.

In the original writings, John 1:1 reads: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Literally, it reads: In beginning was word and word was with God and God was word.

The transliterated spelling reads: en archē ēn o logos kai o logos ēn pros ton theon kai theos ēn ho logos

Any good translation will appear similar to the following: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Nowhere----nowhere in this passage or any other that I am familiar with does "logos" represent the Father. In other contexts the Word of the Father is represented, but there is absolutely no basis or authority by which you can make such a statement outside of your own reasoning, and it makes no sense at all.

Graemebell, the Bible is replete with passages that tell us that God the Father created the heavens and the earth--that Jesus created everything and that yes---the Holy Spirit was right there in the process.

God is spirit, but yet He was heard walking in the garden of Eden. The Bible says that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. The Bible says that Jesus raised Himself from the dead. The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.

The entire framework, the context of John chapter 1 describes the announcement by his herald of the coming of the prophesied Messiah of God, in Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son. Emmanuel--God with us.

In Matthew 28:19 the disciples (and us) are told by Jesus: Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, The use of the definite article in the genitive singular masculine in this sentence is very telling. The doctrine of the Trinity is very well revealed over the centuries through God's Word and though it is a progressive revelation it was understood by the apostles and the early church fathers---centuries before the council of Nicea. It was precisely to combat the heretical denial of Jesus' divinity that the council was called at all.

I do not like sounding harsh Graemebell, but your writing is moving steadily toward a bent that diminishes who Jesus Christ is. You are just flatly mistaken. He is God, and only cultists and other unbelievers try to make Him less than He is.

My encouragement to you is to find a decent church where Jesus is exalted--worshiped and taught about each and every week, and spend some time in fellowship with believing Christians who will likewise be willing to disciple you and extend the hand of love in Jesus Christ to you. I hope that your heart will be open to this.

Peace in His holy name,
Kabar

It is fine that it is seen by God.Then God knows that i do not ever accept what others tell me just as Jesus warned we should not do.
You state,"From your first foray onto these forums until this most recent, you have endeavored to indicate that everyone from the early church fathers to most of us here have been spoon-fed a non-biblical bill of goods by people of egregious character and bad judgment. "
I certainly believe that many people do lead people astray with false doctrine.
I also until recently did not believe many things until it was shown to me by God.
the problem with most people ,if not almost all,is that they cannot accept that a poor sinner like me would even be visited and spoken to by God.
they also dont accept that someone like me could have seen God.Well i did that 25 years ago.

the problem is many people just listen to a pastor and are too scared to criticize or question.
I question all the time and I question God EVERY day.
And I dont accept that God will mark us down because we may misinterpret some things but apparently you do.You should be careful because it also says that you should not judge lest you be judged.

The biggest problem I see is that every person I have seen teaches that if you believe you are automatically saved.I would like to see where it says that.
I would also like those who believe they have been touched by the Holy Spirit to undersatnd that IF they were really touched and then willingly sinned they are condemned.

When I was touched by the Holy Spirit it was a feeling noone could mistake.it was felt like a force .
So since then I am not worried that God will judge me harshly because it is God who is leading me to query and question.

I dont diminish who Jesus is or what He suffered but He himself says that we are all sons of God if we have been filled with the Holy Spirit. Therefore based on trilogy theory I am also God and so is every person who has been filled with the Spirit.

That seems to me to be getting awfully close to the satanic theory espoused by oprah winfrey who claims we are all gods.

Read romans chapter 8 up to verse17.
So according to that and many other things stated by Christ He calls Himself a Son of God and never God.God himself states that "this is my son of whom I am well pleased".

So based on the trilogy,apart from the ark of the covenant we know need to include all the other Sons Of God and the trinity is now the Holy Infinity.

I know God.I also know Christ.And I know I have been filled with the Holy Spirit.According to you that makes me not only Christ but also God.I can tell you I am not God ,however I try to live as God wants since He came to me some 12 weeks ago.

However if living as God wants is not enough,and I have to accept something that is far from acceptable to me and something that God Himself leads me to investigate to maintain salvation then obviously I will not be saved.

More importantly,if I have learned one thing it is that those who tell me I am damned simply because I dont accept something that god tells me to question are the ones who are more likely to be damned.

Christ Himself states that very very few will be saved.therefore there is a fair chance that MANY people out there who claim to be Christian will NOT be saved.Those telling you that simply believe and you will be saved are not only condemning themselves but many who listen to them.

Hello Graemebell,

Only people who know their Bible well would doubt your statement. I believe that perhaps you are convinced of it, but something like this is expressly contradicted by the Bible. The next time any person who hasn't died physically will see Jesus will be in the clouds.

Your posts are evidence enough of that.

The Bible tells us to question in Berean fashion. So does our pastor----but....nowhere---nowhere in the Bible does it in any way encourage us to question God's wisdom. I don't know what you mean by "mark us down", but I do know that He does not like us to contradict His word and pass that contradiction off as fact. That is a misleading practice whether it is intended or not. I find it interesting that you say you question God every day and in the next breath caution me to be careful about judging. I also know that Matthew 7:1 is usually the first verse a defensive person pulls out of their hat when they feel put upon by the truth. Graemebell, I am very careful to make discerning judgments based on biblical principles.

If this statement is accurate then I was right. You have cut yourself off from almost everyone, because it is certain that not everyone believes this. The Bible doesn't say this. In fact, it says that the demons believe that God is, and they tremble. With good reason. Aren't you in fact exaggerating more than a little bit? Every person you have seen Graemebell? I can tell you of many who do not share that opinion. Jesus Himself tells us that we must be "born again", or that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. He tells us that we must repent of our sins---turn from our allegiance to our sin and to God the Father through Him. It is by His grace alone through the faith He grants us--alone that we are saved. A person who merely acknowledges the existence and fact of God but who sins *****-nilly in his life is not someone who loves God. The reality is that Jesus told us that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. That does not mean that we will keep them perfectly. We can't. It means that because we love Him we will want to keep His commandments.

1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Jesus died once Graemebell, and He paid for the sins of all mankind. Their sins past, present and future. That is called grace. It is the gift of God, that not man may boast. Men may either repent and be saved through God's grace or not. The saved still sin, Graemebell. The difference between the saved and the unsaved is Jesus. He imputes His righteousness to those who repent and love Him because it is impossible for them to be perfect while they live on this earth. He covers them with His perfection, because our sins were nailed to the Cross with Him. All sin is pretty much willing sin Graemebell, and driven by frail human pride. If you think you have never willingly sinned, you ought to re-evaluate a little bit, and then try to be intensively honest with yourself about it. Even towards the end of his ministry, Paul said he was the chief of sinners. I am no Paul, and I am willing to bet that you aren't either.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This passage doesn't teach that there is no condemnation because a true believer doesn't sin anymore. Rather the context continued from Romans 7 into chapter 8 teaches that even though believers are weak and will fall into sin that they are not condemned because of the grace of God, in Christ Jesus.

I will assume you meant "Trinity" here, and not trilogy. The doctrine of the Trinity neither declares or teaches anything of the kind. Oprah Winfrey is a New Age guru who doesn't believe in God or in the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is about One God who is three persons. I have absolutely no idea where you could possibly concur that believing that God is manifested to us in this way indicates a belief in personal godhood. In fact, you are the only....and I mean only person I can recall who has ever made that particular non-biblical suggestion to me. Let me say this unequivocally----this is simply nonsense. Christians know this is not the case. No Christian believes this. If they did, they would not be Christians, they would be something else, like Oprah Winfrey.

First things first Graemebell......Jesus is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of GOD. Do you realize the significance of that statement? It sets Him apart from all other beings. He is God's ONLY begotten Son. In the Old Testament, when it says "the sons of God"....it is בְנֵי־ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙or "ve·nei-ha·'e·lo·him" Whenever that term is used...it is talking about angels---without exception. It is not talking about men, and Jesus is exceptionally mentioned as God's ONLY begotten Son. You really need to understand this. It is not a small or insignificant thing. The Bible says that we must understand God rightly---that we must understand Him as He is. I cannot stress this enough to you.

As I mentioned before...I do not believe that you have seen Christ bodily. The Bible expressly teaches that no living man will until they meet up with Him in the clouds. I have no idea what you mean by saying that God "came to me some 12 weeks ago", and I have no expectation that you will believe anything I say. I will say this. I have no desire to engage in any kind of spirited debate wherein "one-upsmanship" is the order of the day. I only hope no one is taken in by the things you claim you make or the peculiarly non-Biblical beliefs you espouse.

As for me, I will end my discussion in this thread with you here.

Hoping the best for you,
Kabar