Originally Posted by Kabar

Hello Graemebell,



Only people who know their Bible well would doubt your statement. I believe that perhaps you are convinced of it, but something like this is expressly contradicted by the Bible. The next time any person who hasn't died physically will see Jesus will be in the clouds.



Your posts are evidence enough of that.
Only time will tell as to who is correct but to state I could not see God places yourself at the risk of being judged harshly for judging others.
I never claimed to have seen Christ.i claimed to have seen God and stick with that 100%.



The Bible tells us to question in Berean fashion. So does our pastor----but....nowhere---nowhere in the Bible does it in any way encourage us to question God's wisdom. I don't know what you mean by "mark us down", but I do know that He does not like us to contradict His word and pass that contradiction off as fact. That is a misleading practice whether it is intended or not. I find it interesting that you say you question God every day and in the next breath caution me to be careful about judging. I also know that Matthew 7:1 is usually the first verse a defensive person pulls out of their hat when they feel put upon by the truth. Graemebell, I am very careful to make discerning judgments based on biblical principles.



If this statement is accurate then I was right. You have cut yourself off from almost everyone, because it is certain that not everyone believes this. The Bible doesn't say this. In fact, it says that the demons believe that God is, and they tremble. With good reason. Aren't you in fact exaggerating more than a little bit? Every person you have seen Graemebell? I can tell you of many who do not share that opinion. Jesus Himself tells us that we must be "born again", or that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. He tells us that we must repent of our sins---turn from our allegiance to our sin and to God the Father through Him. It is by His grace alone through the faith He grants us--alone that we are saved. A person who merely acknowledges the existence and fact of God but who sins *****-nilly in his life is not someone who loves God. The reality is that Jesus told us that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. That does not mean that we will keep them perfectly. We can't. It means that because we love Him we will want to keep His commandments.



1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Jesus died once Graemebell, and He paid for the sins of all mankind. Their sins past, present and future. That is called grace. It is the gift of God, that not man may boast. Men may either repent and be saved through God's grace or not. The saved still sin, Graemebell. The difference between the saved and the unsaved is Jesus. He imputes His righteousness to those who repent and love Him because it is impossible for them to be perfect while they live on this earth. He covers them with His perfection, because our sins were nailed to the Cross with Him. All sin is pretty much willing sin Graemebell, and driven by frail human pride. If you think you have never willingly sinned, you ought to re-evaluate a little bit, and then try to be intensively honest with yourself about it. Even towards the end of his ministry, Paul said he was the chief of sinners. I am no Paul, and I am willing to bet that you aren't either.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This passage doesn't teach that there is no condemnation because a true believer doesn't sin anymore. Rather the context continued from Romans 7 into chapter 8 teaches that even though believers are weak and will fall into sin that they are not condemned because of the grace of God, in Christ Jesus.



I will assume you meant "Trinity" here, and not trilogy. The doctrine of the Trinity neither declares or teaches anything of the kind. Oprah Winfrey is a New Age guru who doesn't believe in God or in the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is about One God who is three persons. I have absolutely no idea where you could possibly concur that believing that God is manifested to us in this way indicates a belief in personal godhood. In fact, you are the only....and I mean only person I can recall who has ever made that particular non-biblical suggestion to me. Let me say this unequivocally----this is simply nonsense. Christians know this is not the case. No Christian believes this. If they did, they would not be Christians, they would be something else, like Oprah Winfrey.



First things first Graemebell......Jesus is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of GOD. Do you realize the significance of that statement? It sets Him apart from all other beings. He is God's ONLY begotten Son. In the Old Testament, when it says "the sons of God"....it is בְנֵי־ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙or "ve·nei-ha·'e·lo·him" Whenever that term is used...it is talking about angels---without exception. It is not talking about men, and Jesus is exceptionally mentioned as God's ONLY begotten Son. You really need to understand this. It is not a small or insignificant thing. The Bible says that we must understand God rightly---that we must understand Him as He is. I cannot stress this enough to you.

As I mentioned before...I do not believe that you have seen Christ bodily. The Bible expressly teaches that no living man will until they meet up with Him in the clouds. I have no idea what you mean by saying that God "came to me some 12 weeks ago", and I have no expectation that you will believe anything I say. I will say this. I have no desire to engage in any kind of spirited debate wherein "one-upsmanship" is the order of the day. I only hope no one is taken in by the things you claim you make or the peculiarly non-Biblical beliefs you espouse.

As for me, I will end my discussion in this thread with you here.

Hoping the best for you,
Kabar

Originally Posted by Kabar

Hello Graemebell,



I am not judging you. I am comparing what you say to what the Scriptures say, and most of what you say does not harmonize with Scripture. Certainly what you say about the Triune nature of God does not match up with Scripture.

In one statement you warn me not to judge and in the next you twist what I say and accuse myself and others of being polytheists. You condemn people and generally say that every church you have seen is apostate. I know that I said my last post would be my last post, and I must apologize for that, but I cannot allow you to twist my words and state falsehoods unchallenged.

I am not pushing multiple Gods. The Bible is very clear that there is One God. If your particular brand of heresy is that of one "who regards Father, Son, and Spirit as modes of being, and not as persons, thus denying personal distinction in the Trinity" so be it, but do not say that Trinitarians are something which they are not.

I am very sorry if you cannot understand the doctrine of the Trinity, but that is why I encouraged you to find a decent church where Jesus is lifted up and taught each week, and get plugged in. If you did so, you might come to understand that God the Father is spirit as the Bible says, and that "His throne" is the best language available to describe His holy presence. To ask, "was He sitting next to Himself?" is just silly.

Graemebell, the Bible tells us that when Jesus was being baptized, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him from heaven like a dove and the Father's voice boomed from the heavens. This is one God, manifested to us in three persons.

I will not respond further.

God bless,
Kabar

Originally Posted by Aspros_Tigris

actually Jesus claimed that He was God twice.

1: Kjv John 8:58-59
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, andso passed by.

The phrase "I am" is the same as that used by god in Exodus 3:14

Kjv Exodus 3:14
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

2: Kjv John 10:30-33

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Originally Posted by seekHm1st

Graemebell,

I can only say that yours is not a Christian theology. Theology matters...so very much.

I don't know if I have ever seen a user put out so many contradictions and mixed signals in one thread before. It is heavily nonsensical. Your suggestions about actual contextual meanings based on punctuation changes is about as careless a hermeneutical practice as I have ever seen.

Only the Jehovah's Witnesses intentional use of punctuation as a tool of their agenda is more of a concern. You really ought to carefully consider how haphazardly you are making these suggestions.

You have placed the real meaning of the following text in question: 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." (From John, Chapter 8)

You are making a very tricky suggestion about the punctuation in this passage. The main issue is what you are doing with the term, "I AM" in verse 58. Your suggestion might even make sense if you weren't completely ignoring so many things, not the least of which is linguistic consistency and common sense. In order to do what you wish to do, you would need to take the Greek language and turn it into a language which it is not. Graemebell, there is a structure to any language. If one goes about changing that structure, then you are creating another language. That amounts to what you are doing here. There is a tense for that phrase in its linguistic setting that is unique to Greek. You can't force an English language tense onto it and say you have not polluted its meaning. In so doing, you take something extremely huge and pass it off as meaningless. Because you don't understand the Trinity, you are acting with a presuppositional bent against any true reasoning for it.

You are also ignoring the textually critical use and insertion of indefinite articles lik "a" and "an" for general readability. The Greek language doesn't have indefinite articles, so if it is to be translated into a readable version in English, those have to be added in. There isn't anything wrong with this---so long as when doing so the meaning of the text is not changed in any way. You are redefining the meaning of certain texts, and whether or not you are aware of it you are in fact saying that Jesus is less than He is. This is not only careless and irresponsible, it is heretical.

You have called into question the Divinity of Jesus Christ, and you have taken a tack from the Jehovah's Witnesses on this point and others. Are you a Jehovah's Witness? It begins to sound like you are.



Aspros-Tigris gave you some good examples of Scripture that make it obvious that Jesus is God. He is not "a" god. He is "Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" who was predicted in Isaiah 9:6. He is the Word who became flesh.

He is the man who wrestled with Jacob until the breaking of the day. He is the One who visited Abraham in the plains of Mamre with two of His angels. He allowed Abraham to worship Him there. He is the One who allowed Himself to be worshiped at least five times in the gospel account of Matthew.

He received worship because He is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and because (He) "......God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Graemebell, only God is worthy of worship, and the Bible tells us in the Old Testament; "22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." (Isaiah 45)

Again, it tells us in the New Testament; "5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Just because the Bible says that the Father is greater than Jesus does not mean that they are not One. It is simply a matter of subserviency of roles. The husband is the head of the wife, but the Bible tells us that we are all equal in Christ, and we are. Husbands and wives are equals, but have separate roles to play in a marriage so that the marriage may be orderly. God is a God of order--of peace--and in the matter of the three persons or subsistencies if you will--within the Trinity, the roles fulfilled are in perfect order.



These things have been fully addressed on this server.

Blessings,
seekHm1st

Originally Posted by nova

The bible clearly says cross not tree not stake as jws call it . saying christ was hung on a tree and not crucified is to allow for a non devine christ only. You see its well known that you can hand a person on a stake hands above their head no leg support and at worst they will pass out because they don't get enough breath
but take them down and a seemingly magic things happen they tend to wake up. The fact you made a point to point out this jw believe of a tree or stake hanging shows along with the rest of your so called theology that you are a jw even though you claim not to be one. It is clear to me at leas that you are. Focus on punctuation as a method to change meaning denying christ is divine previous posts and this topic as well etc. And sense deception is no problem for the jws the mormons and any other cult do to no indwelling holy spirit to convict one of lies and half truths and deceptive practices you can sit and say im not a jw for the next 6 months like another jw here did and i wont believe you nor will others here because we can see it in your posts the arguments you use are enough.

So consider your self exposed to the light and the fact your a jehovah witness revealed.