I was having a debate with nova the other day which i failed to get an answer so ill post here.

According to creationist people when flood came the salinity level of the ocean was about 60 per cent concentration of what is today world average.

The question is how would salt water fish aswell as fresh water survive that? Modification of salt concentration would have killed them both aswell as alges which would brought down the entire ocean ecosystem.

I wont give links that implies the common knowledge that fish need certain ph level and salinity or they die since one can claim that my links are bogus (you can do that experiment at home even with an aquarium) so ill ask for a link to a encyclopedia that you trust and is not biased which i can use and give u the link that proves the need for a certain salt and ph level for fish to survive and not only fish but many other creatures.

Also then theres the problem that land vegetation cannot survive.(yes that dont multiply via seeds.)

Would be nice to stay on subject and solve the problem and not pick on me

You were given the link you refused to view it and kept on the same question for the next hour and half i mean really. Not my problem or any one else's that you decided against viewing the video in the link had you done so you would have had your answer.

And you do realize that there are about 4 ways for plants to propagate counting seeds right? Ferns for example use spores and tulips have bulbs others sprout from the parent plant and are essentially a clone of the parent plant (snow ball bush is one example but it also can be grown from seed) All methods of propagation will survive not only a flood but high saline content (one way to get a tulip bulb to sprout sooner soak in a mild salt solution) Had you paid attention to chat and not just tossed out straw men arguments you would have seen the answers but you was far far to busy tossing out straw-men as well as other logical fallacies to see the answers. Maybe one of these days you will bring up something new that hasn't already been answered on one of about a 100 creationist sites. But truthfully the arguments available to you are quite limited and have long ago been debunked and been falsified years ago.

__________________
http://www.icr.org/article/4352/
Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
nova on #topix
the only thing darwinism lacks as a religion is prayer to a god!


"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone

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Since your not a biologist i would request some links to prove your statement that trees can survive underwater and marine ecosystem.

Even from creationist sites.

If you refuse then i guess the talk is over.

Im going to post my log from last nights chat including where i gave you a link for a site that had the information you wanted how ever because you like to ignore it im not including the real link. Once i am done with my class word for the day so a and can clean up the has entered has left on line off line stuff so a couple hours.

__________________
http://www.icr.org/article/4352/
Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
nova on #topix
the only thing darwinism lacks as a religion is prayer to a god!


"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone

[04:42:33 PM 1/31/10] <nova> on this i think you need to seriously take some biology classes
[04:42:37 PM 1/31/10] <Red> ''can fresh water fish live in salt water
[04:42:37 PM 1/31/10] <Red> ''can fresh water fish live in salt water
[04:42:38 PM 1/31/10] <Red> google it
[04:42:41 PM 1/31/10] <Red> u find that they cannot
[04:42:46 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> doesnt have to
[04:42:52 PM 1/31/10] <nova> again red
[04:42:55 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> fresh water fish lived in fresh water
[04:43:00 PM 1/31/10] <nova> i know from personal experiance
[04:43:04 PM 1/31/10] <Red> what tse?
[04:43:19 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> what makes you think fresh water fish had to be in the ark
[04:43:20 PM 1/31/10] <nova> that fresh water fish have no problem in salt water esp when the stalt is lower than typical sea content
[04:43:22 PM 1/31/10] <PrayerSoldier> as i said ....... God is the one made the flood if he wanted though it doesn't say so he may have protected all the sea / fish life
[04:43:31 PM 1/31/10] <Red> Freshwater fish can tolerate a very small amount of salt, but generally, they cannot tolerate saltwater because they cannot properly osmoregulate in saltwater. That is, they cannot control the salt content in their bodies in saltwater
[04:43:40 PM 1/31/10] <Red> 60 per cent concentration is too much
[04:43:45 PM 1/31/10] <nova> LOL
[04:43:52 PM 1/31/10] <Red> ofcourse if u agree that this is false like evolution oh well
[04:43:59 PM 1/31/10] <nova> 60% content salt that uh higher than the dead sea ....
[04:44:16 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> funny
[04:44:16 PM 1/31/10] <PrayerSoldier> your the one false
[04:44:16 PM 1/31/10] <Red> 60 per cent too high
[04:44:24 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> red i cant believe you would present this type of argument
[04:44:25 PM 1/31/10] <Red> ill give u from wiki
[04:44:26 PM 1/31/10] <Red> wiki ok?
[04:44:28 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> lol
[04:44:35 PM 1/31/10] <nova> its a straw man tsehdek
[04:44:40 PM 1/31/10] <nova> lol
[04:44:44 PM 1/31/10] <nova> wiki seriously?
[04:44:50 PM 1/31/10] <Red> ok
[04:44:58 PM 1/31/10] <Red> what source?
[04:45:06 PM 1/31/10] <nova> i seem to remember you telling me you only wanted peeer reviewed the last time you were here
[04:45:07 PM 1/31/10] <Red> tell me an encyclopedia that u trust
[04:45:09 PM 1/31/10] <Red> ill look there
[04:45:12 PM 1/31/10] <nova> and you want to try and use a wiki?
[04:45:21 PM 1/31/10] <Red> and present u evidence of fish that freshwater fish cant live in salt
[04:45:26 PM 1/31/10] <nova> straw man and double standard
[04:45:30 PM 1/31/10] <Red> no u give me ur non-biased encyrclopedia
[04:45:37 PM 1/31/10] <nova> no such thing red
[04:46:15 PM 1/31/10] <Red> so everything on the internet is false?
[04:46:16 PM 1/31/10] <nova> ive seen fresh water fish living just fine in salt water tanks
[04:46:48 PM 1/31/10] <Red> is there a source on the internet that might present non-biased facts?
[04:46:48 PM 1/31/10] <PrayerSoldier> Gods power is what rules and he is the one who did the flood so he had a way for it to work out how he wanted it done end of story
[04:46:48 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> red do you believe everything your read
[04:46:48 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> if so read the bible
[04:46:48 PM 1/31/10] <Red> im waiting nova
[04:46:48 PM 1/31/10] <Red> why are u using the internet
[04:46:48 PM 1/31/10] <nova> the key is
[04:46:51 PM 1/31/10] <Red> if its all false then?
[04:46:57 PM 1/31/10] <etb72> is amryann here
[04:47:00 PM 1/31/10] <nova> increasing the salt content gradually over a few days
[04:47:15 PM 1/31/10] <Red> no im just asking a encyrclopedia that i will look and present to you that species of fresh water fish cannot live salt
[04:48:53 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> funny they diodnt have to
[04:48:53 PM 1/31/10] <Red> the eggs of fresh water
[04:48:54 PM 1/31/10] <Red> cant live in salt
[04:49:00 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> didnt
[04:49:00 PM 1/31/10] <Red> cuz they dont have a membrane
[04:49:15 PM 1/31/10] <Red> nova i will present u facts about freshwater fishes howeve ru will say that my sources are corrupt
[04:49:18 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> red your not using your head
[04:49:21 PM 1/31/10] <Red> please give me a encyclopedia site
[04:49:26 PM 1/31/10] <Red> that you trust
[04:49:27 PM 1/31/10] <Red> and tse
[04:49:27 PM 1/31/10] <etb72> oh ok maryann
[04:49:45 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> fresh water fish did not have to survive in salt water
[04:50:08 PM 1/31/10] <Red> \why not
[04:50:09 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> they only had to survive in fresh water
[04:50:14 PM 1/31/10] <Red> if u have a flood
[04:50:17 PM 1/31/10] <nova> regardless tsehdek this guys argument is pure foolishness
[04:50:19 PM 1/31/10] <Red> all over the world
[04:50:22 PM 1/31/10] <nova> they can live in saltwater
[04:50:23 PM 1/31/10] <Red> all of the worlds water
[04:50:24 PM 1/31/10] <Red> get salt
[04:50:32 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> because the world known at that time was just a small portion of the middle east
[04:50:33 PM 1/31/10] <nova> but saltwater and fresh water do form layers
[04:50:48 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> the rest of the world was not inhabited until after the flood
[04:50:48 PM 1/31/10] <nova> um tsehdek
[04:50:53 PM 1/31/10] <nova> the flood was global
[04:50:59 PM 1/31/10] <nova> not local to noahs little world
[04:51:01 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> so the fresh water fish in the rest of the world survived
[04:51:01 PM 1/31/10] <Red> im sure nova isnt qualified to say that unlike an internet encyclopedia xD
[04:51:02 PM 1/31/10] <Red> yea
[04:51:03 PM 1/31/10] <Red> tse
[04:51:07 PM 1/31/10] <Red> how can u be so wrong
[04:51:10 PM 1/31/10] <Red> and telling me to use my head
[04:51:17 PM 1/31/10] <Red> 60 per cent salt concentration
[04:51:21 PM 1/31/10] <Red> of what its today
[04:51:28 PM 1/31/10] <Red> i would bet it was more since the salt lakes
[04:51:48 PM 1/31/10] <Red> funny thing is
[04:51:51 PM 1/31/10] <tsehdek> bible proves that the wrold did not spread until after the flood
[04:51:51 PM 1/31/10] <Red> there are even salt water
[04:51:52 PM 1/31/10] <maryann> why is this so important to you red?
[04:51:52 PM 1/31/10] <Red> fish
[04:51:58 PM 1/31/10] <Red> cant live in low concentration of fresh water
[04:52:07 PM 1/31/10] <Red> cuz it then implies that noah had to build aquariums
[04:52:09 PM 1/31/10] <nova> hes a atheist maryann
[04:52:14 PM 1/31/10] <nova> and he wants us to be as well
[04:52:21 PM 1/31/10] <Red> and provide oxygen in aquariums
[04:52:24 PM 1/31/10] <PrayerSoldier> he wants to just argue that God isn't real and bible is false
[04:52:25 PM 1/31/10] <nova> im goign to give him a video to watch
[04:52:27 PM 1/31/10] <nova> but he wont
[04:52:29 PM 1/31/10] <nova> http://linkwashere com/if you want me to post it you will have to admit you ignored me when i gave it to you 3 times on the 31
[04:52:37 PM 1/31/10] <nova> theres your answer red
[04:52:37 PM 1/31/10] <Red> . If a saltwater fish is placed in freshwater it will die, becaus it's breathing in water it's not adapted to
[04:52:38 PM 1/31/10] <Red> wiki answers
[04:52:42 PM 1/31/10] <maryann> yes, but of all things to focus on...why fish? there are so many other things that he could have questions about
[04:52:43 PM 1/31/10] <Red> If a saltwater fish is placed in freshwater it will die, becaus it's breathing in water it's not adapted to
[04:52:51 PM 1/31/10] <Red> ok nova
[04:52:54 PM 1/31/10] <Red> i cant find there
[04:52:56 PM 1/31/10] <nova> this guy raises fish as a hoby and has done experements with them
[04:53:02 PM 1/31/10] <Red> where it says that fresh water fish can live in salt water


And there you go that was you on as red and as we can see you flat out ignored me giving you the link as i showed in red but did redact bec ause now if you want it your only getting it by admiting that 1 you ignored it and 2 that you then came and made this topic and have lied when you said

Also note that the video i posted for you was a hour long so there is no way you watched it so don't even try saying you did when only about 30 seconds passed between when i posted and when you said you couldn't find it there. IE you never even looked to see.

__________________
http://www.icr.org/article/4352/
Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
nova on #topix
the only thing darwinism lacks as a religion is prayer to a god!


"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone

Please give me the link to the video, i ignored it.Altho i asked if it explains about marine life and salt concentration and i got no answer so i thought it doesnt and i refused to watch a 2 hour video if it doesnt respond to my question.Alot of people just post a creationist site and i cant get any info on a question because it does not provide any or i cant find it.By the time i search to find what im looking for and no explanation is present others are gone.

I wait for the link, im eager to find out how something that is common fact on wikipedia and other sites containing general information can be debunked.So dont dissapoint me and provide the link.

I repeat i hope it explains how the entire marine ecosystem can survive the rapid changing of salt concentration and not collapse.Also about the vegetation.

Having dns issues for the site tonight but heres one link i just found
Freshwater fish in salt water

"But even with these special
varieties of fish, the move must be gradual so their bodies can adjust, or they too,
will die from the change. If you want to learn more about why the freshwater fish will
lose water, (or why a saltwater fish in freshwater would gain water), look up the words
"diffusion" and "osmosis"."

Now they are making a assumption here that the fish goes from true salt water to true fresh or vise versa not a intermix that would drastically lower the salt content. Had yo chosen to listen to what i said on the 31st youd have also heard me mention my brothers tank with his 2 salt water sharks and a gold fish that when put in the tank was meant to be food for the sharks. How ever this gold fish found him self a hiding spot in the tank where the sharks had trouble with and lived till he or she or what ever it was grew to large for the sharks. Later the gold fish died because my brothers filtration system failed and the toxins released by gold fish killed the sharks then the sharks waste from death killed the gold fish. The gold fish lived in that tank for over a year and its only symptoms was it was quite pale in coloration.

So in a global flood where the seas likely would not contain their 3.25% salt content they have now (as part of the salt is from waste products of fish and run of from the continents them self) and the fact their salt content would be diluted by fresh water mixing in they would have no real problems. With that said we all know millions of fishes died off and then over the last few 1000 years have diversified over that period to give us what we see now. After such a die off genetic information is lost.

Im trying again to load up the site with the vid.

__________________
http://www.icr.org/article/4352/
Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
nova on #topix
the only thing darwinism lacks as a religion is prayer to a god!


"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone

and of course soon as i post dns starts working again ...

heres the link

http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/fishfossils.xml

Another interesting one related to the ark

http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/flood.xml

I recommend downloading the large or at least medium sized vids so you can better view charts etc in full screen.

__________________
http://www.icr.org/article/4352/
Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
nova on #topix
the only thing darwinism lacks as a religion is prayer to a god!


"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone

Salmon even tho it can survive in fresh water it just goes upstream and lays it eggs and dies because the enviroment is not meant for it to survive in.
Can you provide the amount of salt in the sea during the flood?I think you said it was 60 per cent of what it is today have you not?If u can do that then we can show if species on earth could survive or not.Other creationist sites say we cannot possible know.By the way another thought i have came across, there isnt enough water to cover the mountains.And people lived in mountains.Also the tides would have been enourmous over 50-100meters in height i dont know how noahs ark could survive that.
And another thing how did the fish renewed their migration path and lay eggs especially salmon?You need a river and 5 months of flood was too much.
Ill check other videos tomorrow i wont forget them.

Um 100 meters ?
Were talking global flood there would be no tides not in the sense your thinking. There would be oceanic swells that would be spread over 1000s of miles. The ark would never face things like having one end on one wave top and the other on another or one in the center thing things like this

======
^....^

Which wold cause the ark to snap downward in the middle or
=======
...^...
Causing it to snap downward at the end

Impossible to show in asci like that but basically the ark would be submerged up to say 10 feet or so and be cradled in the water.
There have been feasibility studies of the ark and not only would it have no problem surviving in stormy seas it would do so quite well do to its size ratio 450x75x45 Which is a common ratio for long haul ocean going ships now (freighters cargo ships and tankers) different dimension but same ratio give or take a little.

__________________
http://www.icr.org/article/4352/
Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
nova on #topix
the only thing darwinism lacks as a religion is prayer to a god!


"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone