Nova and I have been in several discussions on Mormonism and he repeatedly assures me he is well read and that no Mormon has yet answered any of his questions. I do not wish to answer any specific question here, however it has been my experience that LDS scholarship HAS, in fact, well answered many evangelical concerns; however, most are unwilling to look at sources that contain answers.

In my study of evangelical critics of Mormonism, I have found a recent publication by evangelical scholars of theology, who say Anti-Mormons are "losing the battle and not knowing it," because they do not look at the replies Latter-day Saints have printed.

Below are just some of their concerns:

Carl Mosser & Paul Owen, “Mormon Apologetic, Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?” The Trinity Journal, vol. 19 No. 2; Available at: Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing IT?

PURPOSE OF THE PAPER
We realize that what we say will not be welcomed by all, especially by some in the counter-cult movement. Some may criticize us for giving the Mormons too much credit and for being too harsh on our fellow evangelicals. However, much like testifying against a loved one in court, we cannot hide the facts of the matter. In this battle the Mormons are fighting valiantly. And the evangelicals? It appears that we may be losing the battle and not knowing it. But this is a battle we cannot afford to lose. It is our deep hope that this paper will, in some small way, serve to awaken members of the evangelical community to the important task at hand.

EVENGELICAL MYTHS ABOUT MORMONISM
There are many evangelical myths concerning Mormon scholarship. The first is that there are few, if any, traditional Mormon scholars with training in fields pertinent to evangelical-Mormon debates. This is simply false. It is a myth that when Mormons receive training in historiography, biblical languages, theology and philosophy they invariably abandon traditional LDS beliefs in the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the prophethood of Joseph Smith. It is a myth that liberal Mormons have so shaken the foundations of LDS belief that Mormonism is crumbling apart. It is a myth that neo-orthodox Mormons have influenced the theology of their Church to such a degree that it will soon abandon traditional emphases and follow a path similar to the RLDS or the World-Wide Church of God.1 These are myths based upon ignorance and selective reading. These myths must be abandoned by responsible evangelicals.

FACT #1
The first is that there are, contrary to popular evangelical perceptions, legitimate Mormon scholars.

FACT #2
The second conclusion we have come to is that Mormon scholars and apologists (not all apologists are scholars) have, with varying degrees of success, answered most of the usual evangelical criticisms.

FACT #3
[C]urrently there are, as far as we are aware, no books from an evangelical perspective that responsibly interact with contemporary LDS scholarly and apologetic writings. In a survey of twenty recent evangelical books criticizing Mormonism we found that none interact with this growing body of literature. Only a handful demonstrate any awareness of pertinent works. Many of the authors promote criticism that have long been refuted; some are sensationalistic while others are simply ridiculous. A number of these books claim to be “the definitive” book on the matter. That they make no attempt to interact with contemporary LDS scholarship is a stain upon the authors’ integrity and causes one to wonder about their credibility

FACT #4
[A]t the academic level evangelicals are losing the debate with the Mormons. We are losing the battle and do not know it. In recent years the sophistication and erudition of LDS apologetics has risen considerably while evangelical responses have not.

FACT #5
[m]ost involved in the counter-cult movement lack the skills and training necessary to answer Mormon scholarly apologetic.


WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE: SOME SUGGESTIONS:
The evangelical world needs to wake up and respond to contemporary Mormon scholarship. If not, we will lose the battle without ever knowing it. Our suggestions are as follows:

First, evangelicals need to overcome inaccurate presuppositions about Mormonism.
Second, evangelical counter-cultists need to refer LDS scholarship that is beyond their ability to rebut, to qualified persons.
Third, evangelical academicians need to make Mormonism, or some aspects of it, an area of professional interest.
Fourth, evangelical publishers need to cease publishing works that are uninformed, misleading or otherwise inadequate.
Fifth, scholars in the evangelical community ought to collaborate in several books addressing the issues raised in this paper.

whosoever,

For a time, I owned a copy of "The New Mormon Challenge", in which authors Mosser and Owen raised many of these same concerns. This paper appears to be almost an addendum to that book. There are some issues with making a general statement such as the one they have used for their title, and it really does come off as a statement rather than a question.

"Some may criticize us for giving the Mormons too much credit and for being too harsh on our fellow evangelicals." I wouldn't--in either case, but my reasons are widely gapped in their difference. It should be expected that a cultic organization with any longevity and a fair amount of resources would start spending some of them on academic advancement of their cause. On the other hand, the best and most effective way of refuting Mormon doctrine is to know one's Bible well. There really isn't much excuse for not knowing why one believes what one believes, especially when God has lovingly preserved His Word for us. That battle needs to be fought not only in church sanctuaries, but primarily in the homes of Christians worldwide.

FACT #1
The first is that there are, contrary to popular evangelical perceptions, legitimate Mormon scholars. I am able to concede this as fact only if we are talking about Mormons who are engaged in a type of presuppositional scholarship with a bent toward legitimatizing the LDS organization through the use of inventive apologetics via tactics of eisegesis. If we are talking about Mormons who are solid Bible scholars, then this is a concession I am not willing to make. Their bent toward gaining acceptance as a "branch" of orthodox Christianity by the true body of Christ (if that could happen) and their training in and faithfulness to such heretical works such as the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price colors their perspective in such a way as to twist the meanings of Scriptures.

FACT #2
The second conclusion we have come to is that Mormon scholars and apologists (not all apologists are scholars) have, with varying degrees of success, answered most of the usual evangelical criticisms. I don't know what "most of the usual evangelical criticisms" are, but I am willing to bet that with few exceptions, most of them are not urban legends. I have access to the BYU Channel on cable TV, and the resources spent on scholarly pursuits are evident there. However, heretical teachings are presented with a subtlety that is often contrasted with blatant and unashamed heresy. One does not have to wait very long to hear unbiblical teachings. Keep in mind that this is one of Mormonism's premier academic institutions.

FACT #3
Currently there are, as far as we are aware, no books from an evangelical perspective that responsibly interact with contemporary LDS scholarly and apologetic writings. In a survey of twenty recent evangelical books criticizing Mormonism we found that none interact with this growing body of literature. Only a handful demonstrate any awareness of pertinent works. Many of the authors promote criticism that have long been refuted; some are sensationalistic while others are simply ridiculous. A number of these books claim to be “the definitive” book on the matter. That they make no attempt to interact with contemporary LDS scholarship is a stain upon the authors’ integrity and causes one to wonder about their credibility.

"Only a handful demonstrate any awareness of pertinent works." This is a statement which I find somewhat troubling. I get a sense that Messrs. Mosser and Owen give less credit to their fellow apologists than perhaps they should. I agree that there is a lot to learn, but there are some things which need to be taken into consideration. I can only speak from my own experience. I have been around Mormons all of my life. They have been my next-door neighbors. I grew up around the corner from what was the only LDS chapel in my town until I was a young adult. I went to school with and still have many Mormon friends. My favorite high school teacher was a Mormon. I have had a fair number of Mormon co-workers over the years and have been blessed to have had numerous lengthy conversations with these folks about their deeply held beliefs. I have learned a lot from these folks, particularly since being close with them that they have held nothing little back from me. If I wanted to inquire about multiple gods, an affirmation of this belief was not withheld from me. If I wanted to ask about eternal progression, they were willing to talk. If I wanted to inquire about multiple gods, an affirmation of this belief was not withheld from me. Even attaining personal godhood was not considered taboo.

I have taken weekend seminars and spent time talking with Bill McKeever of "Mormonism Research Ministry" and others. I have spent a couple of hundred hours studying LDS documents and publications. I have spent time talking with members of my own church who are former LDS members. The trouble is...Mormon apologists are more skilled at obfuscating the issues which separate them from the God of the Bible and from the Savior, Jesus Christ. They use similar sounding terminology (Christian) and they seem to have taken a tack from the emergent church by attempting to bring Christian apologists into a "conversation". This tendency to want an ongoing roundtable discussion is where I believe authors Mosser and Owen have swallowed the intellectual bait which has been dangled in front of them. It is a deception.

FACT #4
At the academic level evangelicals are losing the debate with the Mormons. We are losing the battle and do not know it. In recent years the sophistication and erudition of LDS apologetics has risen considerably while evangelical responses have not. In this respect, I would agree. Serious Mormon apologists can be tricky. They are like the slickest politicians you have ever heard speak. They answer questions without quite answering them. They offer up explanations with subtle pleas for an unexpressed ecumenism that should never exist. In short, at the academic level, they are very deceptive and very serious about what they do.

FACT #5
most involved in the counter-cult movement lack the skills and training necessary to answer Mormon scholarly apologetic. I can't disagree with this statement, largely because many Evangelical Christians when polled, say that they neglect study time, and knowing one's Bible well is the most effective way to be prepared to counter cultic doctrines. I know this is not the direction that the statement was meant to take, but ALL Christians should be prepared to do this whenever necessary.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE: SOME SUGGESTIONS:
The evangelical world needs to wake up and respond to contemporary Mormon scholarship. If not, we will lose the battle without ever knowing it. Our suggestions are as follows:
First, evangelicals need to overcome inaccurate presuppositions about Mormonism. (Agreed--100%)
Second, evangelical counter-cultists need to refer LDS scholarship that is beyond their ability to rebut, to qualified persons. (Also agreed)
Third, evangelical academicians need to make Mormonism, or some aspects of it, an area of professional interest. (Perhaps I differ on this. I believe as I stated above, that a thorough knowledge of Scripture is the best way to be ready to refute Mormon doctrine.)
Fourth, evangelical publishers need to cease publishing works that are uninformed, misleading or otherwise inadequate. (Agreed--100%)
Fifth, scholars in the evangelical community ought to collaborate in several books addressing the issues raised in this paper. (I would love to hear what they had to say)

Incidentally, if I were you, I might edit my post title from "Anti-Mormon" to "Anti-Mormonism". My two cents, for what they are worth.

Blessings,
seekHm1st

__________________
seekHm1st
#######
His Word is... sharper than any two-edged sword.

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Dear seekHm1st,

Thanks very much for the insights. All the Mormon literature in the world will not change the fact that they believe in a created god and a created savior, who cannot help them. They try to deny it by saying the Bible only speaks about this heaven and this earth. They need the one true Jesus, who is eternal and saves by grace alone, for He is sufficient.

Blessing in Him
Starfire

The feed back on this post has been good for me to read. I am fascinated with the comments and the insights. I wanted to make two clarifications however on my interpretation of the article:

1) as far as Mormon apologetic being ignored, one reply stated to the effect "Mormons are unclear in their answers." This is due to many factors. I have found the same among protestants, but this is due to many factors including (not limited too): jargon, attention spans (I've noticed usually a question is blurted out, and a one line answer is permitted, with no chance to explain before the next question comes), and of course, trying to beat around the bush. Both sides are guilty of these.

However, I believe the paper is referring to research, not chat or personal discussions. Most anti-Mormon authors cite and quote other anti-Mormon authors, and they ignore the other side of the debate. That is poor research.

2) the other thing I wished to bring out is that Starfires comment. "all the Mormon literature in the world would not change the fact..." Neither I, nor the paper, is trying to convert anyone with its findings. What is saying isn't that the winner of the battle determines truth; but that Mormon's have answered nearly every question protestants have fired at them, and if protestants want to disprove them, they can't continue to fire from the same slug shell they have already emptied.

I have spent 2 years at carm on the mormon forum i have yet to see answers given. I see allot of snow job answers pretending to be real answers. But when you read what is really there its just a round and round circle with no answer ever given.

Your so called churches teachers teach mormon missionaries to do this "Don't answer the question they ask, answer the question they should have asked."
Said by robert millet
Untitled Document
You say mormons answer questions i say thats a lie as 2 years of experience shows me other wise.

__________________
http://www.icr.org/article/4352/
Stripped of personification, natural selection can be adapted to explain anything--and therefore explains nothing.
nova on #topix
the only thing darwinism lacks as a religion is prayer to a god!


"It’s time for a new Reformation in the Church—to call the Church back to the authority of the Word of God, beginning in Genesis."-Ken ham
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...4/already-gone

Speaking of "answering the question that should have been answered," the part of my quote you (Nova)highlighted in red was my paraphrase of the the original paper. If you are trying to argue it, you might do well to send Owen and Mosser your quote. I assume most reading these post will side with you anyway.

Though evangelical Christians I've talk tend to deny it, I have not met one who has researched both sides for an fair analysis. Most of what I hear from them are quotes from anti-Mormons or quotes from Mormon literature that is neither canonized and clearly quoted from another book--not found by their own research.

Mosser and Owen apparently strongly disagree with Mormon answers, yet can provide an honest analysis. An ability to provide answers--whether you feel Evangelicals or Mormons have the answers--does not "prove" something to be true.

Hello whatsoever,

Allow me to formally introduce myself. My user name is seekHm1st. As far as researching both sides for a fair representation goes….I will you refer to the loose pedigree which I detailed in post #2 of this thread. I don’t believe that my wonderful Mormon friends, schoolteachers, co-workers and acquaintances were liars. As I said, they told me just about whatever I wished to know about Mormonism and the LDS religion.

There are also the many hours I have spent pouring over the “Standard Works”, the Journal of Discourses and the many LDS articles from LDS periodicals I have seen, and I have spoken with learned Christian men who were formerly LDS members. Members and former members have all told me the same things. I am far from the final authority on Mormonism, but I can tell you this though....when I have been challenged by a former co-worker (still a friend) to prove him wrong about his belief and especially for his faith in Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God, and when I labored long at it and finally presented him with a handful of papers taken directly from the LDS publications I previously mentioned, and when I challenged him to read and compare the quotes in their complete context-----he flatly refused-----and told me they were anti-Mormon literature. The “Standard Works” and Journal of Discourses….anti-Mormon literature. I guess in a sense he was right, because they did disprove what he claimed, but he was wrong in one regard. I am not anti-Mormon. I am anti-anything that perverts the true and whole Gospel message of Jesus Christ. Mormonism does that.

No? One example. Mormonism uses many of the same verbiage which Christianity does, but the true meanings are entirely different. A Christian would say for example: “We are saved by the grace of God.” The Mormon would say: “Yes, we are saved by grace, after all we can do, and isn’t it gracious of God to allow us to do that?” The Bible says:” For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)The Book of Mormon cannot add to that.

There is a fundamental difference in what we believe, and it starts there, with how we are justified, and by whom. Christians say that by God’s grace made possible through the atoning sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ we are saved by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is the One true God of the Bible and besides him there is no other.When Mormons make a statement like that, they are saying something entirely different, and that is a fair treatment of the facts.

Christians believe in the One true God of the Bible and besides him there is no other. Mormonism believes in something entirely different. Mormonism believes in an infinite number of gods. Mormonism believes that the god of this world was once once a man as we are now---who lived on another planet---and they believe that that man “progresed” to his current status of godhood. This is so wholely disconnected with Christianity that you don’t even realize that it is blasphemous to Christians. You seem to be frustrated and question why this should be such an affront to Chrisitanity.

Let me put it this way…..you and I change nothing about ourselves and I will ask you a question. If I suddenly agree, with the beliefs that you hold to, to call you a Christian----would you suddely agree, with the beliefs I hold to, to call me a Mormon? No. You would not, because our beliefs are vastly different. I think that you realize that. If you realized however to what degree they differ, you would no longer be baffled by why we take a firm stance when you unknowingly cross the line from explaining your views, over to proselytizing.

Blessings,
seekHm1st

__________________
seekHm1st
#######
His Word is... sharper than any two-edged sword.

SeekHim1st,

Good to make your acquaintance.

Your experience with your co-workers/friends/etc. sounds much like what I am going through. I initially got on this chat (contrary to popular belief) to try and gain understanding about protestant beliefs. Frankly, I couldn't get any answers because I was faced with an abundance of pointed-questions, and false accusations. I have, in fact, answered every question given to me honest an fair. Yet to be honest and fair, some of those answers are "I don't know," or "I need some time to look those up." My experience with Nova (and some co-works/friend/etc.) is mocking statements: "you are running away," or "I can never get a Mormon to answer my questions." Yet, I have provided you here in these chat rooms an opportunity to share your beliefs with me and what do I get--anti-ed. With frequent experiences like this, what am I to think?

Of course you feel Mormons aren't "playing fair" and we feel you are the play "ground bullies." I have posted this blog with solid support, from the experience and research of two evangelicals who support my claim that it is Mormonism who is not getting the answers from evangelicals. I recognize it only SUPPORTS my sentiments and does not PROVE anything. Yet, instead of countering with Mormons (not ex-mormons) who feel Mormons are ignoring evengelicals, or countering with something to discredit the statements of these two men I quote, I get more person experiences that neither of us can validate or prove. Again, we cannot learn from one another if we sit and argue "I'm not Stupid, You are!" Like children.

I have attempted to clarify my purposes for this post, and I STILL get replies like your that "Mormons aren't Christian." If you are having trouble understanding what I am driving out, ask--don't assume. I am discussions/arguments like this all the time. the argument goes(paraphrased): "Am too!" "Am not!" Am Too!" "Am not!" until finally I have to tell my opponent how to disprove me--And do you what to know a secret. With a free pass, only once or twice has anyone ever tried.

This blog is not about whether Mormons and Christian or not. It is not about how ALL Mormons answer Protestants and ALL protestant ignore Mormons. What it IS, is a supported claim that Anti-Mormon claims (like all other claims) must be investigated. It is simple really. I use the Spaulding Manuscript again: Did Joseph Smith plagiarize the Book of Mormon--do you simply take as fact a rumor started by a disgruntled Latter-day Saint over 100 years ago? The rumor, if worth quoting, is worth studying. I have never found a person willing to quote that bit of heresay, who has done the comparison themselves. Anything you hear, religious or otherwise, can be reserached and found out for your self. If one person did it, all you have too do is follow their tracks.

That is what lead me to this site. There are enough Christians who claim to know something. I came to find out what they know and how they found out. What I have found is they know nothing but a negative doctrine (I use negative in both senses of the word). not only is there "nothing" to be learned in your doctrine, it would appear your doctrine is the opposite of others doctrines. Catholics, LDS, JW--all have a doctrine. Your doctrine is to disagree with them. In short, your doctrine is the absence of doctrine, as darkness is the absence of light.

Though I am open to change this opinion, this has been my experience both in these chats and forums, as well as talking to multiple protestants.

Hello whatsoever,

You will have to set your Spaulding example aside and forget it if we are to progress in any meaningful way. I don't believe it can be validated either way. That's all I have to say about that, since you brought it up.

My response started with the Mosser and Owens excerpt you posted. May I ask you, from how other than my own studies and experiences (since I am not a Mormon and don't believe in Mormonism) would you have me respond to you about your belief system? How can I respond to you with anything that is outside of the bounds of the Bible? It is God's holy and sufficient Word. I compare what I am told of Mormonism to what is contained in the pages of the Bible.

I don't believe that the Book of Mormon is a true document for many reasons. The main reason is whether or not the testimony of the Book of Mormon is true stands or falls on the validity of its delivering prophet, Joseph Smith, and I believe he was a totally false prophet, to the point of being an embarrassment really. There are a lot of reasons for that.

I don't believe that what I have written to you has been a method of one-upsmanship. Instead, so that we might have a basis for understanding, I have attempted to illustrate some of the basic differences between what we believe and why. The reason for that is because unless there are differences of opinion or belief, there is no reason for tolerance. I was in chat with thematrix last week, and we had a very good and lengthy discussion. One of the other users told me to "chillax". I simply don't get it.

I worked hard to get it across to thematrix that he is not hated here, but loved. I know that it is difficult to get that across in text sometimes, because as happy and joyful as I have been on the other end of the connection sometimes, I have had even fellow-Christians ask me if they have offended me in some way. It is usually at that point that my jaw drops ever-so-slightly and I have to go into reassurance mode. Apparently that is what I need to do here.

You are welcome here on the server whosoever. The only stipulation that I tried to be emphatic about is the nature of explanation vs. proselytizing. I don't believe in jousting about the point. We are pretty strict about proselytizing in live chat here, and that line is not allowed egress. Having established that, the forums are another thing altogether. We are much more able to defend what we believe here than we are with drive-bys in chat. Not saying you did that, but rather saying this by way of explanation. There have been plenty of debates, and plenty of exchanges here on the server between Christians and people of other faiths. Some have ended well, and some not.

Let me address another point.

Do you realize that Mosser and Owens, though they raised some valid points about the nature of the recent trends in LDS apologetics, encountered a hailstorm of disagreement and dismissal among the vast majority of Evangelicals when they published "The New Mormon Challenge"? I know that there are more than a couple who do agree with them, but they do not number very many.

The sad fact is that there is about a ten-year-old (or so) trend within Evangelical Christianity wherein many are saying that apolgetics is dead. Another unfortunate truth is that because so many can't properly articulate why they believe what they do, they tend to go on the attack. Many attacks include rude dismissals or the practice of blurting out stereotypical hearsay. People need to study. People need to be able to back up what they believe. (1 Peter 3:15)

I am a point-blank kind of guy. That doesn't mean that I hate you or anything. If anything, I would think you would appreciate knowing where you stand with me. lol I am not sure what answers you are looking for, but if you can handle my unvarnished opinions and what I believe, I will give you any answer I am capable of. You seem to have no problem expressing what you think. There is always another shoe, another foot lol

You aren't hated here whosoever, and neither are any other Mormons who come to the server. If anything, part of our intention is to show you Who we believe in by our behavior. We aren't perfect, but we try. Let me assure you, even if you believe that you don't need it...there are other Christians here on the server who will read this and pray for you and for me. You will not be hung out to dry. I can tell you that people here care just as much about you as they do about me. Christians are about Jesus Christ, and they are about His agape love. Without His love, we have no right to claim ourselves Christians. Often, with that love comes the plainly spoken truth. True, some people speak out in error. Hey, we're only human beings like you. In a nutshell, that mixture is what you'll get when you hang around here.

With that.........ask away. Let fly. Let's hear it and let's have some discussion. Just know that I am not going to lie to you, and if what I say sounds brutal that it is not meant to hurt you. I can't however help, nor will I apologize if what I believe to be the truth offends you. I hope for and expect the same from you. That doesn't mean that you and I can't speak frankly and remain gentlemen, right? When I sign off on one of my posts, and I say "blessings", I really mean it. There is nothing sarcastic, phony or hypocrytical about it. So......

Blessings,
seekHm1st

__________________
seekHm1st
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His Word is... sharper than any two-edged sword.