Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? - Page 3

larry · Tweet this Post! #21 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 06:57 AM

Dear brethren, doesn't it still come back to the question: "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

How would any of us know? If Paul, who spoke in tongues more than they all according to 1 Corinthians 14:18 asked such a question, do you suppose he knew there was a difference in a Christian having the Holy Spirit dwelling with them, as opposed to indwelling them? I have experienced it and so do not wrestle with it as I once did.

In Acts 19:5 when those were baptized in the name of Jesus, they were as saved as they would ever be. After that in Acts 19:6 as a separate occurrence the Holy Ghost came upon them regardless of what spin anyone puts on it.

In Jesus' name - larry

Baruch · Tweet this Post! #22 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 09:43 AM

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Originally Posted by interwattie

I was talking about this issue of whether they received the Holy Spirit with a past- pastor of my church.

He showed me that the disciples Paul was talking to, had received teh Holy Spirit individually as saved ones when they entrusted their salvation with Jesus, but had not received the Holy Spirit as in being empowered by the Holy Spirit-- dwelling in the midst of them.. as one of Jesus' churches.

That still doesn't explain why they only referred to the baptism of John's. If they had believed in Jesus, Jews were required to be baptized in Jesus' name before receiving the Holy Spirit. So these disciples as termed "certain disciples" were not believers in Jesus Christbecause Paul had to tell them that Jesus was and is the One John the Baptist was preparing the way for.

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The reason why this is... is that you can see at Pentecost an example of this happening.. where the congregation there were individually saved people, but they were not empowered as an assembly by the Holy Spirit until the Holy Spirit came upon them with the tongues of fire etc..

So.. the Holy Spirit has numerous roles.. and receiving the Holy Spirit as a congregation is different from receiving the Holy Spirit individually.

Actually, when we are referring to the promise of the Spirit at salvation, we are referring to the permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost: as in the seal of adoption. The disciples when they were with Jesus had not received that promise because that promise was for when He leaves to the Father. Verse 25 declares the condition for that promise.

John 14: 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him....23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Now to the commandments in verse 15 which sets the stage for the receiving of that promise: it cannot be everything Jesus had taught because we need Him in us to live the christian life so as big as verse 15 is that comes with the promise, what are the commandments for that promise? We follow it back and see Him talking about coming to Jesus in prayer and asking in His name.

John 14: 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

A commandment to pray? No. The Gentiles in Acts 10:34-48 did not pray or say a word or anything remotely visible by others to declared that they had believed: for while they had yet heard the words of Peter, they believed and received the Holy Spirit. Then they spoke in tongues afterwards and then they were baptised by water. So we look at John 14:13-14 as holding a clue to those commandments and so we go further back up for surely the Lord would tell us what those commandments are for us to receive the Holy Ghost.

We see Him talking about His relationship with the Father, and then in verse 6 is where the commandments for the promise of the permanent indwelling rests in. His invitation.

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So the commandments of His invitation is key to receiving the promise of the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit as witnessed by the reading of Acts 10:34-48 for the Gentiles believed and were saved just as the letters to the epistles explain that promise as Jesus is the hope of the Gospel.

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

So any receiving of the Holy Spirit by the disciples before His actual going away to the Father where He is waiting to come to receive us unto Himself... that dwelling of the Holy Spirit was not permanent yet for He was yet still with them.

Note these times:

Matthew 10: 1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease..... 18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

Jesus had not died yet but He had given them the Holy Ghost before His supernatural visit in John 20. Do note that Thomas , one of the twelve, was not among them at the time so this was not the actual promise. Even afterwards, Jesus showed Himself to the disciples:

John 21: 1After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.

So that was why Jesus told His disciples to wait when He finally went away to the Father because of the condition of that promise as given in John 14:25.

So preaching another spirit to receive after salvation, even if you call that spirit, the Holy Spirit, ... is still preaching another spirit to receive which is not after Christ Jesus. Remember the commandment of His invitation which came with that promise of the Spirit.

Nowhere has a promise been given that when one calls on the Holy Spirit, He will come. The Holy Spirit does not move on His own accord.

Nowhere has it been written to the churches to "make sure" they get that "other baptism" of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues".

This teaching of "another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues" is false. Scriptures plainly declare only one baptism of the Holy Spirit and as much as wayward believers are failing to test the spirits tricking them into believing that and saying that, there is no getting around that one baptism by dividing what the Holy Spirit does as if that means there is more than one baptism. We really need His words to prune away the works of darkness with His help.

1 Corinthians 12: 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

One baptism.. one drink. We are filled and thus saved. We are not leaky vessels for we are complete in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

So don't fall for those extras teachings that adds to the simplicity of the Gospel for that is departing from the faith and rest we have in Christ Jesus when we came to and believed.

Colossians 2: 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

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Baruch · Tweet this Post! #23 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry

Dear brethren, doesn't it still come back to the question: "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

How would any of us know?

Again, Paul determined that these "certain" disciples were not believers in Jesus Christ as he informed them, and then they were baptised in Jesus' name.

Jesus said this:

John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me... 15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

That's how you will know: by Him dwelling in you. He did not say by speaking in tongues because that is how the world know when they receive other spirits in the occults.

Isaiah 8:19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

So believers are not to seek after a sign for signs were to follow the believers as a witness for the unbelievers: not as a confirmation for the believers to know they have the Holy Ghost. We are to know Him by Him dwelling in us. He said so.

If one is born again and the experience is like no one knows which way the wind bloweth: so it is when one is born again. If you stop putting emphasis on the external and focus what it means to believe in Jesus, then you will know that Jesus is the hope of the Gosple; not the signs that follow believers.

Hebrews 11: 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report.... 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 3: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The way you are going, you are implying that we are children of God by speaking in tongues, but that is not so. Don't you know how much doubts that brings when you place the assurance of salvation by a sign?

1 Corinthians 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

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If Paul, who spoke in tongues more than they all according to 1 Corinthians 14:18 asked such a question, do you suppose he knew there was a difference in a Christian having the Holy Spirit dwelling with them, as opposed to indwelling them? I have experienced it and so do not wrestle with it as I once did.

I have no doubt that you experienced it, but you are still not testing the spirit nor the false teaching coming from that spirit of error. Believers were warned that deceptions will come if possible to deceive the very elect as you must see how that false teaching sows doubts and moves away from the rest in Jesus to look for a sign as an adulterous generation for they seek it not after Christ.. but directly after the "spirit".

Do keep this in mind:

1 Corinthians 14:18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

1 Corinthians 12:29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

And that more excellent way is love.

1 Corinthians 13: 1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Then Paul went into the topic of if anyone was to seek a spiritual gift, he began promoting the gift of prophesy over all gifts as the singular gift to seek and began comparing the gift of prophesy over the gift of tongues because the gift of tongues as a singular gift is not a stand alone gift, but prophesy is for the edification of the body of believers.

Do you not find it strange that Paul as led by the Holy Spirit is promoting the gift of prophesy as the Lord's will for us to seek over all gifts and yet this "spiritual campaign" of another baptism of the Holy Spirit is coming with the gift of tongues? Why not prophesy?

And is it not alarming that this same gift of tongues that comes with no interpretation can be found in the world before the Gospel came? How can God call those out of the occults to be witnesses of Him if christianity has the same practises of just vain and profane babbling?

So it goes back to testing the spirits and how the spirit of error is trying to trick us into believing so as to move us away from the hope and rest in Jesus Christ in seeking another spirit to receive .. by seeking that gift directly after the spirit.

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In Acts 19:5 when those were baptized in the name of Jesus, they were as saved as they would ever be. After that in Acts 19:6 as a separate occurrence the Holy Ghost came upon them regardless of what spin anyone puts on it.

Let's consider where the spin is going: Your spin is to seek after a sign and to receive that sign is after the spirit whereas my spin on it by His grace.. is to point us back to our resting place in Christ Jesus, the real hope of the Gospel.

Jeremiah 50:6My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. 7All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.

Matthew 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Hebrews 4: 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.... 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

So preaching anything that takes away the glory of God in salvation in Jesus Christ is moving away from the effects of the Gospel as if the Day of Pentecost is like the movie: "Groundhog Day"... a repeatable event, but according to our faith, it is not.

Wayward believers need to rest in Jesus by faith for He is the hope of the Gospel.

larry · Tweet this Post! #24 (**permalink**) 09-16-2009, 10:51 AM

Dear Brother Baruch, I think I see where you are coming from now. I think that you believe the (One baptism) and (Receiving) and/or (Annointing) of the Holy Spirit are one and the same?

Do you have scripture to show that? I am saying that because future revelations of believers receiving the Holy Spirit didn't exhibit the following signs.

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Thanks in Jesus' name - larry

Baruch · Tweet this Post! #25 (**permalink**) 09-16-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry

Dear Brother Baruch, I think I see where you are coming from now. I think that you believe the (One baptism) and (Receiving) and/or (Annointing) of the Holy Spirit are one and the same?

Yes. The sanctification, the anointing, the filling, the power, the baptism, the with.. the of.. the by.. the Holy Spirit is given by Jesus Christ as promised at salvation for He gave the Holy Spirit by promise... not in a series of promises.

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Do you have scripture to show that?

Matthew 5:6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

John 6: 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Now that they are saved, they are filled & sealed as His.

Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

No more continual filling of the Spirit for that would imply that we are not new wineskin able to hold the new wine thus there can be only one hope of our calling and one drink of that one Spirit so we can be witnesses of the Good News now.

1 Corinthians 12: 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Thessaloniasn 2:13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

1 John 2: 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Luke 24:49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

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I am saying that because future revelations of believers receiving the Holy Spirit didn't exhibit the following signs.

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Thanks in Jesus' name - larry

That event was the promise Jesus made when He had ascended to the Father to send the Comforter when He was no longer "present" with them after the resurrection. That promise of the Holy Spirit is permanent so that Jesus' promise of being with them always has come true.

larry · Tweet this Post! #26 (**permalink**) 09-17-2009, 09:17 AM

Okay dear brother.

God bless you in Jesus' name - larry

Baruch · Tweet this Post! #27 (**permalink**) 09-19-2009, 07:45 PM

Believers are to follow Jesus as all eyes are to be on the Bridegroom. Believers are not to follow after signs and wonders. Signs follow the believers. They are not meant as a witness to the believers, but to the unbelievers.

Does anyone really believe that the spectacular must follow the believers all the time if they were meant as a witness to the unbelievers?

The hope of the Gospel is and will always be by faith in Jesus Christ. Hebrews 11:1 Hebrews 11:6 John 20:29 Galatians 3:14

larry · Tweet this Post! #28 (**permalink**) 09-20-2009, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baruch

Believers are to follow Jesus as all eyes are to be on the Bridegroom. Believers are not to follow after signs and wonders. Signs follow the believers. They are not meant as a witness to the believers, but to the unbelievers.

Does anyone really believe that the spectacular must follow the believers all the time if they were meant as a witness to the unbelievers?

The hope of the Gospel is and will always be by faith in Jesus Christ. Hebrews 11:1 Hebrews 11:6 John 20:29 Galatians 3:14

I agree, though I read in Matthew 7:16, "Ye shall know them by their fruits," and that would be the fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5:22-23: "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance."

You mention the fact: "Believers are to follow Jesus as all eyes are to be on the Bridegroom." Are we not in a race to win Christ? Philippians 3:8 "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ." What in your estimation are the qualifications for this?

Thanks in Jesus' name - larry

Baruch · Tweet this Post! #29 (**permalink**) 09-20-2009, 09:25 AM

[SIZE="3"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry

[COLOR="Black"]I agree, though I read in Matthew 7:16, "Ye shall know them by their fruits,"

In context, brother...Matthew 7:13-17 is referring to the fruit of the false prophet which is what? Gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. That is the fruit of the false prophet. It is ecumenical in nature as another name is flying on that banner "instead of Christ" as in referring something else in the name of Jesus Christ, but glorifying another name in that banner.

Like... "the holy laughter movement" "being slain in the spirit" "Toronto Blessings" "Pensacola Outpouring" and etc.

The discerning thing about those movements is how they can ocur in any denomenation, breaking down the barriers, and yet by such so called "powerful move of God", the catholics are still catholics and so forth and so on: and yet as much as denomenations point fingers at one another as not abiding in Him, Jesus, Who taught to correct a brother when caught in a trespass, would have the Holy Spirit ignore the obvious errors in those denomenations just for glorifying the comings and goings of the "Holy Spirit" Whom is by the way, isn't sent to speak of Himself but to testify of Jesus Christ so as to glorify the Son? How is it that the name of the "Spirit" is being exalted in those movements? Because that is not the Holy Spirit.

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and that would be the fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5:22-23: "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance."

I agree, but do note, as much as you say by their fruit you shall know them,( even though Matthew 7:16 was referring to false prophets being ecumenical in nature,) speaking in tongues wasn't a fruit listed for others to know them by, now is it?

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You mention the fact: "Believers are to follow Jesus as all eyes are to be on the Bridegroom." Are we not in a race to win Christ?

And yet in that race, all eyes are to be looking unto Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith: Hebrews 12:1-3

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Philippians 3:8 "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ." What in your estimation are the qualifications for this?

Paul was referring to not being identified by the deeds of the law in living as His. That means Promise Keepers ( which is also ecumenical in nature as its name regarding the movement of men is being waved on that banner ) and those that have made the commitment to follow Christ to save themeselves as given at the altar call in the Graham Crusades ( also ecumenical in nature as he has made an agreement not to proselytize any members from their original church, but to send them back as in catholics that made a commitment to follow Christ would be sent back to the catholic churches they came from ).

We have to vease from our works and be set free from our man made bondages to rest in Jesus Christ and all His promises to us that He will do it in helping us live as His because without faith... without ceasing from our works... without ceasing from our trying to keep that commitment to follow Him... without ceasing from dong the best we can by the deeds of the law in keeping promises to live as His... we will never please God.

We please God when we take Him at His Word and that Word is Jesus Christ. John 6:28-29 Philippians 1:6-11 Psalm 100:3 Psalm 118:8

That is why the just shall live by faith: Galatians 2:20-21

Do click on those verses for the references as we are edified by the scriptures to reprove the works of darkness.

As it is, I reiterate by His grace that we are known as christians by our love and by our faith in Jesus Christ.

John 13:35 Galatians 3:26 None of those declare tongues are a confirmation for the believers to seek to know for sure they are His. The fact that we believe shows we are His. The fact that we love others is how others will know we are His disciples.

So once again, the spectacular... the signs are for unbelievers.

Remember doubting Thomas? Blessed are those that have not seen Jesus, and yet believe. Those that seek after signs are not blessed, but in danger of becoming an adulterous generation.
1 Timothy 4:1-2

larry · Tweet this Post! #30 (**permalink**) 09-20-2009, 01:39 PM

Baruch - So once again, the spectacular... the signs are for unbelievers.

larry - Acts 8:14 "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:"

Would you say that those who had received the word were saved?

Acts 8:15 "Who, (The apostles) when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:"

Now the apostles had been told earlier in John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

This was saying that the world (unbelievers) cannot receive the Holy Spirit. So the apostles were praying for those believers to receive the Holy Spirit. Why if they all received Him when they were saved?

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Those that the Holy ghost fell on had to already be saved, for the world cannot receive Him.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As a sign to unbelievers, the believing Jews were unbelievers as it were that the Gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit also. Tongues became the sign that the Gentiles were saved also because those of the world could not receive Him.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Now the Sadducees said there was no resurrection, but Paul knew better and that would be like telling my Sunday teacher that a modern commercial passenger was too heavy to fly, and him just retired as a Captain from Continental. I have received the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues; it had nothing to do with me being saved, for I was secure in Christ years ahead of that experience. So brother, you can say what you will, bring scripture without end and I'll say to you as I have another.

This debate has degenerated into something like "Why is there air." Well we need air to breathe. But why do we need to breathe? Can you prove we need air to breathe? God created us in that manner. Why did God make us to have air? Are you sure God made us? Can you show me where God said we had to have air; does it say in the Bible that we have to have air? Probably not dear brother, and I no longer care.

God bless you in Jesus' name - larry

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