Interwattie,Summer greetings in the name of Jesus, the Christ of God.So....have you and Larry ever read the Bible?because of Him

okay-- the Holy Spirit at salvation--


so- what is 'water' is this verse?

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

so-- born of water - equals born of the flesh.. born of the mother's womb.. this is the first part of John 3:5

second part.. born of the Spirit-- the Holy Spirit.. this happens when someone entrusts their salvation with Jesus:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(2Co 1:20) For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
(2Co 1:21) Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
(2Co 1:22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


(1Pe 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(1Pe 1:4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
(1Pe 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

(John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(John 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
(John 10:30) I and my Father are one.


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

receiving the Holy Spirit is the same thing as entrusting salvation with Jesus

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Interwattie,

Summer greetings in the name of Jesus, the Christ of God.

Care to elaborate on what happened with the Samaritans that Philip preached to in Acts 8? Clearly, the bible says they believed, and were baptized. If what you say is true, then they also received the baptism of the Holy Ghost at the moment they believed. But the scriptures say they didn't. So, did they or didn't they?

interwattie - Receiving the Holy Spirit-- same thing as Jesus giving eternal life

happens as soon as you entrust Jesus with your salvation..

unearned, unmerited, unfavoured.

larry - Observances I've noted in scripture.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Question - Were the disciples saved at this time in Acts 1:8? And certainly the Holy Spirit was in others of the Old Testament. And did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? of course they did. Does that promise all future believers to receive Him when they believe?

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Question - Who is of the world that cannot receive the Holy Spirit when He comes? It is all unbelievers, wouldn't you agree?

Act 8:14-17
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Question - Were these at Jerusalem saved who received the word of God?

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Question - Why would they pray to receive the Holy Ghost if He came automatically with salvation? And they must be saved (Not of the world) to receive the Holy Ghost.

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Question - Why were those at Jerusalem baptized unless they were believers, and again why did they receive the Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands instead of when they believed?

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. No laying on of hands here.


Acts 10:44-48 How did Peter know they were filled with the Holy Spirit below? He heard them speaking in tongues. And these were not yet baptized, but they were saved or they could not have received the Holy Spirit.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:2 He (Paul) said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

Question - If Paul knew all received the Holy Spirit when they are born to God, why ask the question?

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Question - Were these saved who were baptized yet?

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Question - Again, why was it necessary that Paul ;ay hands on them if they automatically receive the Holy Ghost when they believe? And how did

interwattie - being filled with the Holy Spirit-- this is letting God have more of you.. confessing sin.. seeking after Him.. relying on Him..

baptism-- this is not when we receive the Holy Spirit..

we receive the holy spirit when being born again by Jesus..

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are essences and expressions of the one being.. God

they do things together with the Father as well

Larry - 2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. There is no mention that all believers have received the Holy Spirit.

The job of the Holy Spirit was to John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, and to the believer in John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Dear interwattie, I don't know if I just confused matters further, but that is what I believe.

Thanks for the reply in Jesus' name - larry

interwattie - okay-- the Holy Spirit at salvation--

so- what is 'water' is this verse?

larry - John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Below you will find the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
In Jesus' name - larry

Remember when water is referred to in the surrounding context of John 3:5-- it is water of the womb.. this is what Nicodemus references to..

Jesus doesn't say it is not water of the womb he is speaking of, but that after someone is born of the water of the womb.. they need to entrust their salvation with Him.. thereby being born of the Spirit



Also note.. receiving the Holy Spirit sometimes does not mean salvation.. not every time.. like in the book of Acts when the Holy Spirit came upon the church at Pentecost and the tongues of fire and all that came upon the congregation.. this isn't salvation.. this is the Holy Spirit coming to bless His church institution.. empower it.

Also note.. the people in Acts 8.. when they said they do not know of the Holy Spirit.. well -

when you are saved.. you entrust your salvation with Jesus.. plain and simple.. you may not have learned about the Holy Spirit.. this does not mean you aren't saved.. this person has still entrusted their salvation with Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

believe in the gospel of your salvation-- sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

John 6:27 Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

So.. what we have.. is the Holy Spirit sealing people who entrust their salvation with Jesus.

NOW

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.. as well as saving people the same way also--

annointed Kings to empower the leadership.. this was not salvation.. but God blessing whoever led his chosen Israel nation - so it could carry out His divine plan. You can make a strong case that King Saul was not saved.. but he did have the Holy Spirit empowering his leadership for a time.

The Holy Spirit also.. in the NT aswell as indwelling people for salvation-- He dwelled in amongst a congregation of saved baptised believers as the Comforter.

The Spirit also.. gives authority to a church to be one of His churches.. He is their 'lampstand'-- notice the churches in Revelation.. what their lampstand involved..

The Holy Spirit does much more:

In the early church days until the Word of God was complete.. He gave ministry and sign gifts to men.. when the Word was complete.. the gifts of faith, hope and love abided.. continued to today. The offices of Pastor, teacher.. etc still remain.. but are not supernaturally empowered now.


The Holy Spirit was in the beginning with Jesus and the Father as one being creating the universe..


So the point of all this:

You gotta read the context of what the Holy Spirit is doing when you see passages about Him.

I basically agree with all above except your thinking of being born of water.



I have no idea what you're referring to when you say people were saved in the Old Testament by the Holy Spirit. And King Saul was, and is saved, as He was God's anointed.




I do not see anywhere in scripture where the Holy Spirit had to indwell a person to be saved.



I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, for I read where the lamp stands are the seven churches. Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.




Here again I disagree with you in Who created all things.
John 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:14-18 Jesus created everything.
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.



Thanks again in Jesus' name - larry

I basically agree with all above except your thinking of being born of water.



I have no idea what you're referring to when you say people were saved in the Old Testament by the Holy Spirit. And King Saul was, and is saved, as He was God's anointed.




I do not see anywhere in scripture where the Holy Spirit had to indwell a person to be saved.



I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, for I read where the lamp stands are the seven churches. Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.




Here again I disagree with you in Who created all things.
John 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:14-18 Jesus created everything.
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Thanks again in Jesus' name - larry

If you are referring to the reference in your OP as displayed through various Bible versions: there are some things to consider.

Acts 19: 1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

When it was written "certain" disciples, they were not referring to those disciples as in automatcally declaring that they are believers in Jesus Christ.

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

This inquiry was made by Paul to find out what kind of disciples they were. Their answer made them circumspect that they were not believers in Jesus Christ, and so Paul made a further inquiry.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

John's baptism. They were not believers in Jesus Christ. These were disciples of John the Baptist's.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

So apparently, these followers were not around when Jesus came, because Paul had to tell them about Him. These "certain" disciples were followers that had received the water baptism of repentance and had moved on, holding to the teachings of John the Baptist.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

This is true because if they had known about Jesus, they would have mentioned the water baptism done in Jesus' name.

See this reference to know this to be true:

John 4:When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

So John the Baptist had disciples as well and so after they were told that Jesus was the One John was preparing the way for, they believed, got baptised in Jesus' name and then they received the Holy Ghost. Back to Acts 19 below:


6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

Anyway, this reference cannot be used for the false teaching of receiving another baptism of the Holy Spirit because these disciples were not believers in Jesus Christ to begin with.

It is a false teaching because ... there is only one hope of our calling as there is one drink of that one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12: 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The false teaching of another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues is just the same rudiment of preaching another spirit to receive: as the world do get tongues that is babbling as found in the world when they seek other spirits.

2 Corinthians 11: 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Galatians 3:14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So we have received the Spirit of "promise" by faith... not by sight:

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report.... 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And Jesus does reward everyone that comes to Him by faith:

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

As Jesus gave only one invitation given out in different ways, but all pointing to Himself, the Son of God, for life and for having that relationship with God the Father,

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

as we are not to climb up by any other way:

John 10: 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

.... there can only be one baptism of the Holy Spirit in according to our faith.

Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Since believers are not to believe every spirit but test them, and since no lie is of the truth: The Spirit of Truth would not be leading anyone to preach another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues: the spirit of error would. And since this warning has been given to believers to be aware of that because they can be misled by what other spirits are impressing or implying by with these "supernatural experiences" so as to change the testimony of the Good News as if there is another calling.. an addendum that Peter, Paul, and everybody else in the New Testament had forgotten to inform about, but they didn't forget to mention another baptism of the Holy Spirit because there isn't another one to be had.

So let us put off this work of darkness of seeking another spirit to receive which has resulted in a stranger's voice with no interpretation: and seek edification by the Word of God.

2 Timothy 2: 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1 Corinthians 15: 33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Peter 2: 24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

I was talking about this issue of whether they received the Holy Spirit with a past- pastor of my church.

He showed me that the disciples Paul was talking to, had received teh Holy Spirit individually as saved ones when they entrusted their salvation with Jesus, but had not received the Holy Spirit as in being empowered by the Holy Spirit-- dwelling in the midst of them.. as one of Jesus' churches.

The reason why this is... is that you can see at Pentecost an example of this happening.. where the congregation there were individually saved people, but they were not empowered as an assembly by the Holy Spirit until the Holy Spirit came upon them with the tongues of fire etc..

So.. the Holy Spirit has numerous roles.. and receiving the Holy Spirit as a congregation is different from receiving the Holy Spirit individually.

In the case of the disciples in this thread.. they had received teh Holy Spirit individually, but not as a congregation to empower them and dwell in their midst.

So they were saying 'we have not so much as heard if their is a Holy Spirit..' in terms of 'we do not know if the Holy Spirit is with us as an assembly'

Remember-

The question of receiving the Holy Spirit was addressed to a group.. not to an individual.

The only times in the bible of groups receiving the Holy Spirit are not about salvation.. but being empowered by the Holy Spirit as one of His churches.

'Being born of water and of the Spirit'- as I put before--

this is for an individual.. and water-- by the context of the verse refers to water of the womb.. and the Spirit-- to salvation through Jesus. So being born physically.. then later being born again.. receiving the Holy Spirit..as an individual.


Context.. context.. context..